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Honored
 Posts: 1052
Post 21 written Oct 8, 2016 at 10:36
Let's be honest, how likely is it you're going to do volunteer work in the EU. Countries in the EU have a pretty high standard of living compared to say, Africa. There are people all over the world doing volunteer work. You don't need to be in the EU to do any of that. You keep going on about the Commonwealth. Indeed, there is actually a world outside the EU. It just feels to me you can't see the forest for the trees.

I was actually talking about voluntary work through organisations like WOOF; http://wwoofinternational.org/

Right now there are no open borders with any other non-UK countries. A freedom of movement for the commonwealth is just a second-best hope.

Well, France is in a state of siege at the moment. On the last terrorist attack, the president said that terrorist attacks are something the French people have to get used to. What!? It most certainly is not. It's because of this freedom of movement why this is happening. If you called a vote now, they would vote to leave the EU too. As for immigration, they're part of the same problem. France can't really stop them unless they reinforce border controls. I'm telling you Ian, the EU is on the verge of collapse. They keep insisting on freedom of movement but haven't a clue how to solve the migrant/terrorist crisis. As is stands, you can't unless you leave the EU. Thank Jiminy, we're on an island surrounded by water.

I was referring to the refugee children, I want to know what you think should become of them? Do you really not care what happens to the refugess at all?

I doubt the EU will collapse. I do think something needs to be done about the terrorist problem, of course, although a lot of the terrorists aren't from outside the EU, but are radicalized individuals from within the EU. Or would you suggest western countries should start deporting all Muslims?

On a personal level, I'd be sad of course if you, Hicks or VenomX suddenly popped your clogs. On a general level, I care about the standard of living that we're facing in this country. That is why we pay our taxes afterall. If it's something that directly affects us, I care. But I'm not going to start crying every time there's a crisis in Timbuktu. The fact is people are dying every second of every day every where. The world doesn't stop just because of that. That vast majority of us are pretty selfish and can't really see that far outside of our own personal bubble.

When you said directly affects us, does us refer to simply the people of UK? Or England?

Of course people die every day. But I think its rather normal to be concerned for the suffering of others, and even more so if those people turn to us for help.

Blooded
 Posts: 412
Post 22 written Oct 16, 2016 at 08:49
Modified:  Oct 16, 2016 at 08:55
I was actually talking about voluntary work through organisations like WOOF; http://wwoofinternational.org/

Right now there are no open borders with any other non-UK countries. A freedom of movement for the commonwealth is just a second-best hope.

That's never going to happen. We have it with Ireland and Northern Ireland but you don't really have a choice there. I understand the principal of freedom of movement if the country is connected by land but I don't see how you can allow somebody from somewhere in the other side of the world to just walk in.

I was referring to the refugee children, I want to know what you think should become of them? Do you really not care what happens to the refugess at all?

Oh, in that regard, age is irrelevant. If they made it across two continents, they're not exactly helpless. They're not really alone, they have people with them. For France, either send them back to where they came from or process them in their country. A refugee is a migrant is a refugee, regardless of race, age, religion etc. There is no difference to me.

You know, I actually worry for people like you and Hicks because if you were in charge of this country, you would happily open the gates and let everybody in regardless of the consequences. All people like you are really doing is fuelling the far right.

When you said directly affects us, does us refer to simply the people of UK? Or England?

People who were born and live in the UK. I'm sorry but we have priority here. This is our country.

Of course people die every day. But I think its rather normal to be concerned for the suffering of others, and even more so if those people turn to us for help.

There are hundreds of other countries along the way they could settle in you know. I think you need to ask yourself why they're so intent on reaching us when they could settle in France, or even the countries that have opened their arms to them like Sweden and Germany.
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Honored
 Posts: 1052
Post 23 written Oct 20, 2016 at 05:55
Modified:  Oct 20, 2016 at 05:55
That's never going to happen. We have it with Ireland and Northern Ireland but you don't really have a choice there. I understand the principal of freedom of movement if the country is connected by land but I don't see how you can allow somebody from somewhere in the other side of the world to just walk in.

I can't see why it couldn't happen. They arrive by flight, apply for national insurance number, and can immediately start working. Australia and NZ already are open with each other. Just because there is a larger physical distance I see no problem, all of the countries have similar amounts of wealth, opportunity and culture. However, where I do foresee a problem is the marked rise in xenophobia in UK, I can imagine people still being against it just because 'they're not British'.


Oh, in that regard, age is irrelevant. If they made it across two continents, they're not exactly helpless. They're not really alone, they have people with them. For France, either send them back to where they came from or process them in their country. A refugee is a migrant is a refugee, regardless of race, age, religion etc. There is no difference to me.

You know, I actually worry for people like you and Hicks because if you were in charge of this country, you would happily open the gates and let everybody in regardless of the consequences. All people like you are really doing is fuelling the far right.

That sounds very worrying to me. Age is irrelevant...  You're also absolutely wrong by the way, a refugee is not a migrant:

Refugee:

   has proven to the authorities that they would be at risk if returned to their home country
   has had their claim for asylum accepted by the government
   can now stay here either long-term or indefinitely.

Economic migrant:

   has moved to another country to work
   could be legally or illegally resident, depending on how they entered the country
   may or may not have a legal work permit.

Source - http://www.redcross.org.uk/What-we-do/Refugee-support/Refugee-facts-and-figures

Ha, I very much worry for people like you. Or rather, I worry about your views. I actually wouldn't just throw the doors open, I would argue for a co-ordinated international effort to help the current refugees and consider imposing stringent appropriate sanctions (and pressure other countries to do the same) on the countries from where refugees are coming from if the local government is at fault.  I do think that refugees who commit severe crimes like those mentioned earlier in this thread (rape, violence etc) should immediately be deported. But everyone else should be helped as much as possible.


People who were born and live in the UK. I'm sorry but we have priority here. This is our country.

Following on from the above, this is where we 100% differ. I can't understand the thinking that where someone is born makes them more or less important than someone born somewhere else. I hope for a future without borders where this tribe-like thinking becomes a thing of the past. Which is undoubtedly the greatest aspect I will miss from the EU project. To put it more eloquently:

"In terms of the principle, free movement of people ought to be a no brainer for entire progressive political spectrum – far beyond the radical left for whom it is a first step to a borderless world. At root, what it represents inside the EU is the creation, through the mixing of people, families and lives, the creation of a lived identity that stretches beyond fractious national frontiers. By opening up the world as a place to freely live and share ideas, it expands the horizons of human potential. The right to live where you want – like the right to love who want, dress how you want, or say what you want – is an extension of human freedom and progress which the left has defended." - http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/10/lefts-reasons-ditching-freedom-movement-are-profoundly-wrong


There are hundreds of other countries along the way they could settle in you know. I think you need to ask yourself why they're so intent on reaching us when they could settle in France, or even the countries that have opened their arms to them like Sweden and Germany.

Ah, of course, they must be coming to the UK to extort the local system! They must be just a bunch of thieves looking to grab what they can... There could be dozens of reasons why they choose UK over other countries (some countries have terrible anti-migrant laws or local groups for example). But all I am concerned about is they they're a person fleeing their homeland because they are at risk if they stay there. See above on the red cross link.

Blooded
 Posts: 412
Post 24 written Oct 23, 2016 at 12:01
Modified:  Oct 23, 2016 at 12:03
I can't see why it couldn't happen. They arrive by flight, apply for national insurance number, and can immediately start working. Australia and NZ already are open with each other. Just because there is a larger physical distance I see no problem, all of the countries have similar amounts of wealth, opportunity and culture. However, where I do foresee a problem is the marked rise in xenophobia in UK, I can imagine people still being against it just because 'they're not British'.

Uh, I didn't actually know about that between Aussie and New Zealand. I guess it makes sense. They're close enough and share the same culture.

Ha, I very much worry for people like you. Or rather, I worry about your views. I actually wouldn't just throw the doors open, I would argue for a co-ordinated international effort to help the current refugees and consider imposing stringent appropriate sanctions (and pressure other countries to do the same) on the countries from where refugees are coming from if the local government is at fault.  I do think that refugees who commit severe crimes like those mentioned earlier in this thread (rape, violence etc) should immediately be deported. But everyone else should be helped as much as possible.

And therein lies the problem. They're not going to send refugees back to a war-torn country just because they commit these atrocious crimes. Looks at how much red tape there is trying to deport EU nationals. And that's another thing. What about criminal records? Problem is with this freedom of movement is the number of criminals that have entered the UK legally but nobody bothered to do any criminal checks on them.

Speaking of which, did you see the news this week about the child refugees coming from Calais. Big questions were asked about the ages of these "children".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3849646/Mature-years-fears-real-age-child-migrants-arriving-Calais.html

If you think these are children, I want you to get yourself down to specsavers immediately and get your eyes checked. It's absolutely insane that our government has allowed this.

Ah, of course, they must be coming to the UK to extort the local system! They must be just a bunch of thieves looking to grab what they can...  There could be dozens of reasons why they choose UK over other countries (some countries have terrible anti-migrant laws or local groups for example). But all I am concerned about is they they're a person fleeing their homeland because they are at risk if they stay there. See above on the red cross link.

Hmm, no, I think you nailed it on the head within the first sentence of course.

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Honored
 Posts: 1052
Post 25 written Oct 24, 2016 at 11:03
Modified:  Oct 24, 2016 at 11:04
I give up! Your lack of compassion is astounding. As established, that there is a minority who commit crimes is true. Just like there is a minority of people born in UK commit crimes. And if they can't be sent back, they should be punished within the law like anyone else. But how you and others genuinely can't consider helping refugees, given what a refugee has to run from, is beyond me.

Here are some quotes that are relevant to the things you said earlier from this article that I would really love you to read in its entirety (its all sarcastic btw):

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/refugee-children-calaid-jungle-dental-test-age-older-migrants-uk-mark-steel-a7372156.html

"When we agreed to let children in, these weren’t the ones we ordered. We were expecting a cute four-year-old with a leg missing and a broken teddy. What’s the point in saving someone’s life if they turn out to be 23 and wearing a hood? Even the children we’ve accepted in the past have swindled us, because they might have looked like little cherubs at the time but they’ve gone on to become 25, 31 or, in some cases, 36 years of age. How much longer are we going to be taken for mugs like this?"

"One complaint in some newspapers this week has been that “many of the refugees don’t have identification papers”. That’s enough to make anyone suspicious. Surely, before setting off on a long journey on a rickety boat to flee from a gas attack, it makes sense to pop down to TK Maxx to get a waterproof jacket with plenty of pockets to keep your driving licence, library card and three recent electricity bills safe and dry. That’s the first rule if you’re heading off for a weekend break in the Lake District, so there’s no excuse if you’re taking a journey across the Mediterranean in a wardrobe."

"It’s time we all learned to act properly towards anyone in need. If we see someone having a heart attack, it’s very important to act quickly and check they’re not feigning it as a ruse to get free biscuits at the cardiac unit. If an elderly person falls down the stairs, search their house for any clues they might be trying to swindle an insurance claim.

Because when you look back at history, at the Huguenots fleeing France or the Jews escaping Germany, the people remembered with pride are those that had the courage to say: “Some of them are over 18 – send them back, the bastards.”


Blooded
 Posts: 412
Post 26 written Oct 29, 2016 at 07:11
I'm not even sure you should be allowed to post in this thread. All you ever seem to do is post left-wing propaganda.

The point is the only reason they agreed to take this lot in is because we were told we'd be getting sweet innocent 5/6 year old children. That clearly isn't the case. And what kind of precedent does this set now? It's okay, make the trek to Calais and we'll let you through.
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Blooded
 Posts: 412
Post 27 written Nov 13, 2016 at 20:27
Ouch, bet you didn't expect Donald Trump to win that either, did ya?

He says he's going to build a wall between US and Mexico and deport millions of illegals too. The world is changing Ian. You have to move with it.
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